Dynomotion

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7458 From: Steve Date: 5/14/2013
Subject: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Using keyboard arrow keys, there is a noticable delay between the keypress and machine movement. This delay was not present with the smoothstepper so I tend to believe the delay is coming from the Kflop.

I have tried adjusting the debounce interval, just in case it was tied in somehow, but it seems to have little effect.

Is Kflop putting an intentional delay in this function? If so, where can it be found and adjusted or eliminated?

Thanks,

- Steve
Group: DynoMotion Message: 7461 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/14/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Hi Steve,

I haven't noticed any delays before.  With any Windows Application the response should be within milliseconds most of the time with an occasional much longer delay if Windows happens to be busy.

Could it just be your Jerk or Acceleration settings?  KFLOP does Arrow Key Jog motion using 3rd order Jerk Limited motion using the Acceleration and Jerk Settings in KFLOP which can be different then the Mach3 Acceleration (with infinite Jerk).  This can potentially allow higher speed, and smoother Jog motion than would otherwise be possible.

A low Jerk setting sometimes appears as a delay because of the time required to ramp up acceleration, in order to ramp up velocity, in order to finally get some position movement.  The Jerk Setting in KFLOP is normally set at least 10X the value of the Acceleration in order to ramp up the acceleration in less than 0.1sec.

Regards
TK


Group: DynoMotion Message: 7522 From: Steve Date: 5/24/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
I searched for posts on this topic and it seems a setting of 100X was being proposed, so I tried that and it seems to have eliminated the long delay.

As this was the last issue to be resolved, I purchased my second Kflop today to use with another project.

I am too busy right now to dig into the Kflop's extensive capabilities, but I do have it working now with MACH which was the initial priority.

I understand that the init file has many params needed to control servos, but I use industrial drives that have all of the capabilities built into the drives (and configurable/changeable on the fly thru commands or signals), so what I want is just the unaltered, unfiltered, unmolested motion in step/dir form of course.

Is there a recommended setup that would pass thru the exact motion without regard for accel/jerk/ or any other characteristics of the motion?

Thank you for all the prompt help.

- Steve

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I haven't noticed any delays before.  With any Windows Application the response should be within milliseconds most of the time with an occasional much longer delay if Windows happens to be busy.
>
> Could it just be your Jerk or Acceleration settings?  KFLOP does Arrow Key Jog motion using 3rd order Jerk Limited motion using the Acceleration and Jerk Settings in KFLOP which can be different then the Mach3 Acceleration (with infinite Jerk).  This can potentially allow higher speed, and smoother Jog motion than would otherwise be possible.
>
>
> A low Jerk setting sometimes appears as a delay because of the time required to ramp up acceleration, in order to ramp up velocity, in order to finally get some position movement.  The Jerk Setting in KFLOP is normally set at least 10X the value of the Acceleration in order to ramp up the acceleration in less than 0.1sec.
>
> Regards
> TK
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve <steve@...>
> To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:46 AM
> Subject: [DynoMotion] Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
>
>
>
>  
> Using keyboard arrow keys, there is a noticable delay between the keypress and machine movement. This delay was not present with the smoothstepper so I tend to believe the delay is coming from the Kflop.
>
> I have tried adjusting the debounce interval, just in case it was tied in somehow, but it seems to have little effect.
>
> Is Kflop putting an intentional delay in this function? If so, where can it be found and adjusted or eliminated?
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Steve
>
Group: DynoMotion Message: 7525 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/24/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Hi Steve,

Regarding the External Step/Dir Drives unmolested motion:  I don't really understand how that could work.  If the drives close the servo position loop themselves then yes all the PID tuning and servo parameters will be handled by the drive and you will not need to configure any of those in KFLOP.  From KFLOP's perspective the drive is open loop just like a Stepper Drive.  However the motion trajectories (which generate the Step/Dir pulse sequences) still need to be configured in KFLOP/Mach3 so that all the axes move in a coordinated manner and so forth.  It sounds like you are thinking that if the desire was to move an axis 1 inch that KFLOP would just send a quick burst of 1 inch of pulses and then the drive would handle the acceleration profile to move 1 inch?  I don't think that would work for cases like circular interpolation.  I suppose I'm missing your point.

Regards
TK


Group: DynoMotion Message: 7534 From: Steve Date: 5/27/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
My point has to do with using Kflop with MACH only. Since I do not know what kind of informtaiton a plug-in receives from MACH, it is difficult to be concise in what I am asking.

I understand the coorinated motion requirment, but is that done inside MACH or does the motion control device have to do those calculations? For example, MACH has settable accell which seems to be active and effects the behavior of the drives, so I make the assumption that the accell setting (in MACH) has already been taken into account before the data is passed to the plug-in.

Following on that assumption, I was looking for some example setting in Kflop that would be far faster than MACHs so that the Kflop would not 'slow down' the accell over what MACH is already doing. This seems to be what was happening with the jerk setting/jog delay issue.

There is not a problem that needs to be solved at this point, I just want to have a better understanding of how the system works and what the interactions are.

- Steve





--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Regarding the External Step/Dir Drives unmolested motion:  I don't really understand how that could work.  If the drives close the servo position loop themselves then yes all the PID tuning and servo parameters will be handled by the drive and you will not need to configure any of those in KFLOP.  From KFLOP's perspective the drive is open loop just like a Stepper Drive.  However the motion trajectories (which generate the Step/Dir pulse sequences) still need to be configured in KFLOP/Mach3 so that all the axes move in a coordinated manner and so forth.  It sounds like you are thinking that if the desire was to move an axis 1 inch that KFLOP would just send a quick burst of 1 inch of pulses and then the drive would handle the acceleration profile to move 1 inch?  I don't think that would work for cases like circular interpolation.  I suppose I'm missing your point.
>
> Regards
> TK
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Steve <steve@...>
> To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 2:33 PM
> Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
>
>
>
>  
> I searched for posts on this topic and it seems a setting of 100X was being proposed, so I tried that and it seems to have eliminated the long delay.
>
> As this was the last issue to be resolved, I purchased my second Kflop today to use with another project.
>
> I am too busy right now to dig into the Kflop's extensive capabilities, but I do have it working now with MACH which was the initial priority.
>
> I understand that the init file has many params needed to control servos, but I use industrial drives that have all of the capabilities built into the drives (and configurable/changeable on the fly thru commands or signals), so what I want is just the unaltered, unfiltered, unmolested motion in step/dir form of course.
>
> Is there a recommended setup that would pass thru the exact motion without regard for accel/jerk/ or any other characteristics of the motion?
>
> Thank you for all the prompt help.
>
> - Steve
>
> --- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, Tom Kerekes <tk@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > I haven't noticed any delays before.  With any Windows Application the response should be within milliseconds most of the time with an occasional much longer delay if Windows happens to be busy.
> >
> > Could it just be your Jerk or Acceleration settings?  KFLOP does Arrow Key Jog motion using 3rd order Jerk Limited motion using the Acceleration and Jerk Settings in KFLOP which can be different then the Mach3 Acceleration (with infinite Jerk).  This can potentially allow higher speed, and smoother Jog motion than would otherwise be possible.
> >
> >
> > A low Jerk setting sometimes appears as a delay because of the time required to ramp up acceleration, in order to ramp up velocity, in order to finally get some position movement.  The Jerk Setting in KFLOP is normally set at least 10X the value of the Acceleration in order to ramp up the acceleration in less than 0.1sec.
> >
> > Regards
> > TK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Steve <steve@>
> > To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:46 AM
> > Subject: [DynoMotion] Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> > Using keyboard arrow keys, there is a noticable delay between the keypress and machine movement. This delay was not present with the smoothstepper so I tend to believe the delay is coming from the Kflop.
> >
> > I have tried adjusting the debounce interval, just in case it was tied in somehow, but it seems to have little effect.
> >
> > Is Kflop putting an intentional delay in this function? If so, where can it be found and adjusted or eliminated?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > - Steve
> >
>
Group: DynoMotion Message: 7535 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/27/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Hi Steve,

Mach3 has two modes of motion.  One when running a job and one when jogging.  You might read the Mach3 "Bible" that Art wrote. 

When running a job the trajectory planning is performed by Mach3.  There is a "ring buffer" that continuously supplies positions where all the axes should be at fixed time increments.  It is upto the Plugin, controller, and drives to make sure all the axes are at those positions at those times for proper coordinated motion.

Jogging is different.  Mach3 just tells the Plugin to move one or more axes to move at a desired speed.   It is up to the Plugin to make that happen.  This is how how our Plugin+KFLOP is able to make 3rd order Jog motions.  And it is how we are able to ignore the Acceleration setting in Mach3 and use the Acceleration and Jerk Settings in KFLOP.  For Jogs I suppose it would be possible to pass on the Mach3 request to an intelligent drive and just tell it to perform the motion profiling and blending to the speeds requested by Mach3.  But a Step/Dir interface wouldn't be appropriate for this.  Something like Modbus would be needed to transfer parameters and speed requests.  But then Modbus wouldn't be appropriate specify the interpolated motion.

HTH
Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7536 From: Wcarrothers Yahoo Date: 5/27/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
I have been very happy with k and Mach. I should use dynomotion but to attached to Mach.  But I've had the opposite complaint on my parallel port machine when I tried a smooth stepper.  Where I that case the Jog movements with the SS were delayed when using my pendant.  But in parallel mode it was not.  
Was relieved That the movement with the K was handled internal so did not have Any delay

Perhaps you would have less delay if you setup a pendant to enter the moves into the k io direct

On May 27, 2013, at 1:51 PM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:

 

Hi Steve,

Mach3 has two modes of motion.  One when running a job and one when jogging.  You might read the Mach3 "Bible" that Art wrote. 

When running a job the trajectory planning is performed by Mach3.  There is a "ring buffer" that continuously supplies positions where all the axes should be at fixed time increments.  It is upto the Plugin, controller, and drives to make sure all the axes are at those positions at those times for proper coordinated motion.

Jogging is different.  Mach3 just tells the Plugin to move one or more axes to move at a desired speed.   It is up to the Plugin to make that happen.  This is how how our Plugin+KFLOP is able to make 3rd order Jog motions.  And it is how we are able to ignore the Acceleration setting in Mach3 and use the Acceleration and Jerk Settings in KFLOP.  For Jogs I suppose it would be possible to pass on the Mach3 request to an intelligent drive and just tell it to perform the motion profiling and blending to the speeds requested by Mach3.  But a Step/Dir interface wouldn't be appropriate for this.  Something like Modbus would be needed to transfer parameters and speed requests.  But then Modbus wouldn't be appropriate specify the interpolated motion.

HTH
Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7537 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/27/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Hi William,

I think the original problem was just low Acceleration and Jerk settings in KFLOP appearing like a delay.

But I agree a pendant directly connected to KFLOP will always give the best guaranteed response.

Thanks
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7538 From: Steve Simpson Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Thanks, this explains a lot. I'm glad I asked this question so that I know the accel settings in MACH only effect jogging. My rigid tapping macro will need to be reworked because I set the Z axis accell to an extreme level for tapping and then set it back after the tapping is completed. I would have been pulling my hair out trying to figure out why the accel was not changing.
 
- Steve


On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
 

Hi Steve,

Mach3 has two modes of motion.  One when running a job and one when jogging.  You might read the Mach3 "Bible" that Art wrote. 

When running a job the trajectory planning is performed by Mach3.  There is a "ring buffer" that continuously supplies positions where all the axes should be at fixed time increments.  It is upto the Plugin, controller, and drives to make sure all the axes are at those positions at those times for proper coordinated motion.

Jogging is different.  Mach3 just tells the Plugin to move one or more axes to move at a desired speed.   It is up to the Plugin to make that happen.  This is how how our Plugin+KFLOP is able to make 3rd order Jog motions.  And it is how we are able to ignore the Acceleration setting in Mach3 and use the Acceleration and Jerk Settings in KFLOP.  For Jogs I suppose it would be possible to pass on the Mach3 request to an intelligent drive and just tell it to perform the motion profiling and blending to the speeds requested by Mach3.  But a Step/Dir interface wouldn't be appropriate for this.  Something like Modbus would be needed to transfer parameters and speed requests.  But then Modbus wouldn't be appropriate specify the interpolated motion.

HTH
Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7539 From: Steve Simpson Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Some form of pendant if probably a good idea. I do mostly design and prototyping so I run the CNC from the keyboard a lot. For example I cut chamfers by holding two jog keys at once. This has proven unreliable with the Kflop so far, but I just swapped out the keyboard for a new one so that may be the problem. Not sure yet.
 
So a couple of questions:
 
Is there a recommended pendant that can operate two axis at once?
 
Can the Xbox controller plug-in be used with the Kflop? I tried a cordless Xbox controller quite some time ago and it interfered with the CNC (axis moving on thier own, etc). I later  purchased a corded Xbox controller, but never used it.
 
There was mention of a 'bible' written by Art, but I do not see that on the list of docs on the MACH support site. Where can I find this?
 
Thanks in advance,
 
- Steve
 
 
 


On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
 

Hi William,

I think the original problem was just low Acceleration and Jerk settings in KFLOP appearing like a delay.

But I agree a pendant directly connected to KFLOP will always give the best guaranteed response.

Thanks
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7540 From: Wcarrothers Yahoo Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Was not talking about that but of course you are correct In your memory of my machine  setting up and progress of how I learned from you to setup

Was just thinking if he setup a button box with io direct into the l for jog directions he would avoid delay 

On May 27, 2013, at 3:32 PM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:

 

Hi William,

I think the original problem was just low Acceleration and Jerk settings in KFLOP appearing like a delay.

But I agree a pendant directly connected to KFLOP will always give the best guaranteed response.

Thanks
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7541 From: William Carothers Date: 5/28/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
If you do a lot of manual work build a pandant or buy one of those 100 dollar jobs on eBay to try

You will like interfacing direct to the k

On May 28, 2013, at 5:52 AM, Steve Simpson <steve@...> wrote:

 

Some form of pendant if probably a good idea. I do mostly design and prototyping so I run the CNC from the keyboard a lot. For example I cut chamfers by holding two jog keys at once. This has proven unreliable with the Kflop so far, but I just swapped out the keyboard for a new one so that may be the problem. Not sure yet.
 
So a couple of questions:
 
Is there a recommended pendant that can operate two axis at once?
 
Can the Xbox controller plug-in be used with the Kflop? I tried a cordless Xbox controller quite some time ago and it interfered with the CNC (axis moving on thier own, etc). I later  purchased a corded Xbox controller, but never used it.
 
There was mention of a 'bible' written by Art, but I do not see that on the list of docs on the MACH support site. Where can I find this?
 
Thanks in advance,
 
- Steve
 
 
 


On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
 

Hi William,

I think the original problem was just low Acceleration and Jerk settings in KFLOP appearing like a delay.

But I agree a pendant directly connected to KFLOP will always give the best guaranteed response.

Thanks
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7545 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Hi Steve,

I do see a problem with pushing two Mach3 Jog Keys at exactly the same time.  That may be a problem in our Plugin.

The Plugin Bible is in the Mach3 Yahoo Group Files.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/files/Mach3Mysteries.pdf
Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7546 From: Steve Simpson Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Thanks, Tom.
 
Multiple direction (simultaneous key press)  jogging works fine with the parallel port driver and also with the Smoothstepper (USB). It also works fine (if I remember correctly) with the Xbox controller plug-in. It works with the Kflop also, but not reliably. I have tried three different keyboards now and it makes no difference. It just occurred to me that they are all USB. I can try also a keyboard that uses the older keyboard specific connector, but if the issue is with the Kflop plug-in it seems moot. 
 
Being at 'Yahoo fo Dummies' level, I did not know there were 'group files'. Thanks for the link. Should be a good read.
 
Incidentally, your modified spindle control program (using my method with persist var in place of volatile var) seems to be working fine. I will try the Xbox controller plug-in for compatibility with Kflop and report back the results of that as well.
 
Thanks,
 
- Steve 
 
 


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
 

Hi Steve,

I do see a problem with pushing two Mach3 Jog Keys at exactly the same time.  That may be a problem in our Plugin.

The Plugin Bible is in the Mach3 Yahoo Group Files.

Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7547 From: Steve Simpson Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Kflop does not appear to be compatible with the xbox controller plugin. Jogging results in a continuous move even after the joystick is released. Feedrate goes off the charts.
 
Bot 29 and 30 version of the plugin
 
- Steve


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
 

Hi Steve,

I do see a problem with pushing two Mach3 Jog Keys at exactly the same time.  That may be a problem in our Plugin.

The Plugin Bible is in the Mach3 Yahoo Group Files.

Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7549 From: Steve Simpson Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Tom,
 
I have done a quick read of the plug-in 'bible' document. Is it possible to update the Kflop plug-in to get more than one (preferably all 6) axis inputs from a jog device (keyboard, joystick, etc) before jogging the axis and output two (or more) step streams simultaneously?
 
- Steve


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
 

Hi Steve,

I do see a problem with pushing two Mach3 Jog Keys at exactly the same time.  That may be a problem in our Plugin.

The Plugin Bible is in the Mach3 Yahoo Group Files.

Regards
TK

Group: DynoMotion Message: 7550 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Hi Steve,

Here is a patched Plugin DLL compatible with KMotion V4.30 that should allow multiple Jog Keys pushed at exactly the same time.

http://dynomotion.com/Software/Patch/Mach3PluginMultiKeyJog/Dynomotion.dll

Copy to the Mach3 Plugins directory.

Other Plugins that command motion are unlikely to work properly.  We haven't been able to locate information on how that mechanism is supposed to work.  We recommend you connect an MPG or Joystick directly to KFLOP.  That is the only way Windows/PC/USB latencies can be eliminated so that there will always be guaranteed real-time response.

HTH
Regards
TK


Group: DynoMotion Message: 7551 From: Steve Simpson Date: 5/29/2013
Subject: Re: Delay in Jogging. Keypress-to-movement. Fixable?
Thankk, Tom. The patched dll seems to be working fine on my development computer (64 bit Windows 7) with the new Kflop board connected.  I'll try it on the CNC machine tomorrow.
 
Just FYI, you previously issue a patched plug-in designated 4.31a which corrected a Gcode program stop issue. This fix seems to be in the multi jog p[atched version, but the version number of this latest patch is earlier than the previous patch. Not a problem, just making you aware.
 
Incidentally, the other plug-ins I mentioned can only do two axis simultaneously and it seems you have surpassed that with your implimentation, Bravo!
 
Is there software and/or a method already available to connect an Xbox controller or joystick directly to the Kflop of would I need to write something myself? I do not have an immediate need beyond the keyboard jogs and my scedule does not allow time to tackle an additional software project, but if there is something already out there, I would like to give it a try while I am working with the kflop.
 
FWIW I am currently building a second mezzanine plate to mount the Kflop and associated intefaceing boards in a second computer case. I was caught off guard by the 3v only pins on Kflop and made some changes to my boards to accommodate. Ultimately I had to remove the isolation chips from the line drivers, but isolation is non-critical in that application so not a big deal. The isolated 24V interfaces are working fine with only resistor tweaks.
 
There are about 140 individual wires coming out of this computer going to the CNC machine:
 
 
I have an e-stop issue to report, but I will start a new thread on that.
 
Thanks for you help once again.
 
- Steve
 


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Tom Kerekes <tk@...> wrote:
 

Hi Steve,

Here is a patched Plugin DLL compatible with KMotion V4.30 that should allow multiple Jog Keys pushed at exactly the same time.

http://dynomotion.com/Software/Patch/Mach3PluginMultiKeyJog/Dynomotion.dll

Copy to the Mach3 Plugins directory.

Other Plugins that command motion are unlikely to work properly.  We haven't been able to locate information on how that mechanism is supposed to work.  We recommend you connect an MPG or Joystick directly to KFLOP.  That is the only way Windows/PC/USB latencies can be eliminated so that there will always be guaranteed real-time response.

HTH
Regards
TK